CAD, aka "Trufin is talking and annoying me again"

So sort of confirmed, reputation can be fixed.

“You have to work your ass off to get back into their good graces.”

So it’s possible to go from Charles Manson to “good graces”. It doesn’t matter how much work it takes, it will be on a wiki, optimized and outlined the best path. “Here’s how you can violate and murder 100 players and still be able to visit Earth!”


I’m thinking people are going to have to play nice with political figures in order to get 100 murders wiped off their record.

Mac I think you are reading the worst into what he said instead of taking it in context again.

What he said is if you get down in rep to the point where they want to kill you on sight you will have to work your ass off to get back in their good graces. There has to be a way to work your way back from mistakes too. Opps I landed at the wrong parking spot on someone’s head by accident, they are smush dead. Am I now never allowed back into this region of space? No, I am going to have to prove that I am a good guy though.

What you are assuming is that there is a max negative rep that you can reach. But what if there isn’t? What if at -100,000 rep you become KOS, you start working to get back up and it takes weeks of missions and trading and being nice to get off the KOS list. Now take the same scenario but you continue to kill people and steal and pillage and you continue to go deeper in the hole. Then if you kill 100 people as you described you would be -10million in rep, which would essentially and practically be impossible to work off.
The key to making the system like this work is making sure the ratio is set right and that there is no max negative rep while there has to be a max positive rep. Also, losing rep has got to be exponentially faster than gaining rep.

Even Charles Manson came up for parole.

I was actually encouraged by this information in CAD.
It means that within a particular faction if you build a bad rep you will have to spend a lot of time and effort and presumably credits to get out of the shitter with them.

Just because you will be able to work your ass off to clear negative rep does not mean that you can game the system if if is done right.

And as for having a wiki with the how to, I expect that wont be practical either. Remember, missions are dynamic, there is no boss you can go farm over an over for rep. Gaining rep is going to require you to go do the grunt work that everyone hates to do in order to prove that you really want to redeem yourself. Even if you know the type of mission to do to get the greatest rep return on time invested, it wont short cut you enough to matter.

Or it shouldn’t if the system is done right and from what I am seeing and hearing I think they are doing it right.

Nope, not reading into it, you and I both saw the same thing…you can reverse negative rep. I’m not saying it’s easy, I’m saying it’s possible. If it is at all possible, period, it will be gamed, by definition. I’m not talking parking violations, that’s not a rep hit. And honestly, I’m not talking smuggling or any of the “non-PC victim” crimes, those are all quite OK to fix rep “in lore”. Murder a player character, become a criminal, be hunted in lawful space forever. You murder someone in real life, you’re hunted until you’re caught. You do your time, you’re let out, and they suspect you for the rest of your life. Owning any kind of weapon is illegal for you, getting a job is hard, etc. That’s how reputation works.

If it can be fixed, there are 2 scenarios possible:

  1. It is extremely complex and takes 100s of hours. That will create a backlash of vitriol because the “casual player” can’t do it, so only hardcore players are able to, with complaints of “then why bother having it at all?” Hardcore gamers will find short cuts and ways to do it faster but it will be hated. Rep will then be used to grief people, I jump in front of your shots, you kill me, you take a rep hit and it’s “permanent” as far as your concerned, “ruining” your toon, you cry and I farm your salt.
  2. It’s easy and convenient, then “why bother having rep at all?”

Don’t make it a game, make it permanent and require it to be intentional. Fixable rep is completely unrealistic for violent crimes. Hell, Monica Lewinski didn’t commit any crimes and she STILL has that reputation (see above). That’s how reputation works.

I see what you are saying.

But I am not sure that translates to gameplay in any practical way.
You can’t have people in game “do their time” because of obvious reasons. So how do you penalize offenders? You can’t completely restrict their game time to being in jail, so you restrict their game time in a different way. So think of their negative rep time as more of a “doing their time” kind of thing. Then, when they have regained their baseline rep and “done their time” they start off with very low rep (ie they are still watched and labeled as you described). And perhaps, as something we might suggest to CIG, they now have a permanently lower max on their rep. They can never reach “Ambassador” level or whatever. The more crime they do, and the more negative the rep they get the more the max is reduced so that at some point they can never get positive again.

Would that make sense and fit more in line with what you are thinking?

Disclaimer: I’m being crusty about this because I hate people. That’s why I kvetch about this. I don’t care about the tech, tech can be fixed. Turrets, combat, fight metrics, all transient issues that will eventually be fixed, I have complete faith in CIG for this. My problem is the community…people don’t change and can’t be fixed, the game has to be designed to compensate for this known factor.

I’m not looking at it as “punishment”, I’m looking at it as “consequences of choice”. TZ has said “being a criminal will be hard”, not “temporarily hard” or “inconvenient”. They kill a player, they are a player killer, that is who they are in the game and the game treats them as such, permanently. Not 1-and-done obviously, and people like bounty hunters and such don’t count, “lawful” player killing isn’t what I’m talking about. Killing a player when there is no lawful context for it in the game is what I’m talking about, things that would get them arrested in the real world. And it doesn’t matter if there was a “witness”. I went out there, I didn’t come back, they find my black box, they know the last ships in the area, etc. There are ways to “hand wave” the “cops didn’t see it, I didn’t do it” mentality.

As a non-player killer, there are areas of the game that are too dangerous for me…permanently. Those areas of space are always going to be too dangerous for me. I can’t “grind some quests” to suddenly make them less dangerous or give me protections there. I can’t get enough UEE faction that I always have a Bengal escorting me.

As a player killer, non-player killer space should be dangerous to them…permanently. It’s a career choice, “I like to murder people” and the game should go “OK, then that’s how it is” and keep it that way. It’s realistic, accurate, and effective.

That’s how you tell the type of game a dev is making. There are no “non player killer” areas in Eve, every inch of it is player killer. People are murdered outright in the “safest” space in the game. “Space is dangerous” and other such rot. That’s by design.

@Simdor @macallen I may be misunderstanding but I think you both are both talking about the same thing. Sim, I think you are talking about accidental bad acts and Mac, I think you are talking about intentional bad acts. Intentional bad acts should be much more difficult, if not impossible, to get “good” reputation back. Unintentional mistakes (of which I might make a few i.e. landing upside down on a landing pad) should be recoverable. I’m just not sure how the game will be able to tell what is intentional and what was unintentional.

That’s definitely the rub, and is pretty difficult to determine even in real life, which is why I stick with “lawful reason”, as that’s pretty cut and dried. Is there a lawful reason the death occurred? Bounty hunting, anti-piracy, warrants, bounty missions, etc. If the game told you to kill them, and you kill them, then there should be no criminal hit. There can absolutely be a rep hit, because if Aegis pays you to kill Anvil miners, Anvil isn’t going to appreciate it, which is why reputation and criminality should be different. Reputation can go up and down, that’s how it works, but criminality should only go up (more infamous), it should only go 1 direction.

I can absolutely see situations where all of the people involved can consent to an activity to make it immune to this. 2 Orgs go to war (war decs, yay), the declaration must be mutual, must be consenting, everyone must agree. With that in place, any deaths between those 2 should not be criminal, unless they’re in civilized space, because 2 Orgs at war will likely not be recognized by the UEE as sanctioned…but maybe you can even pay for that.

My wish is that people who enjoy killing other players find themselves unable to get into space where people who don’t want to be killed by them reside. We don’t need sliders, shards, or servers, people’s actions can speak for themselves, they can “vote with their guns”, but the only way that works is that it is permanent.

Killing 1 guy doesn’t put you there. Maybe killing 3 doesn’t. The specifics are not a concern of mine, lots of ways to do it, lots of situational things can apply. I would like to see 2 things:

  1. It’s permanent, only goes 1 direction, and past a certain point they’re public enemy #1 and that’s it
  2. Guilt is assumed and the killer has to put in a ticket to CS to have it reviewed, vs the other direction where the murderer is assumed innocent and the victim has to put in the ticket after they’ve been killed 5x
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For 2, guilty until proven innocent?

Pop culture proves that all evil villains are just really misunderstood, wonderful, people. Example - Thanos in Avengers Infinity War, he cried… He was just misunderstood and actually a humanitarian in his actions. So, what if he murdered trillions… he was trying to save them from starving… Should he not be viewed as the hero? They didn’t starve did they? :stuck_out_tongue: What about Anakin Skywalker, played by Shakespearean actor Hayden Christensen… he cried because he couldn’t save Amidalla? He killed all of the younglings but so what is 30 to 40 young children cut down by a lightsaber. Aren’t they, Thanos and Darth Vader so relatable? They should not have bad reputations… should they? :wink: I hear they are coming out with a Hitler movie remake…

Well I believe adultery is a crime actually, just one that doesn’t have a great deal of consequences outside of divorce court. A big difference is she didn’t commit that crime with Billy Bob on the other side of the trailer park and got famous for a couple weeks by talking about it on Jerry Springer.

If the faction system works like the one in Freelancer then once you have gone on the UEE most wanted list you aren’t going to be able to run a couple missions for the UEE and in a week or month be their best bud again. You will have to start by doing jobs for company XYZ that will improve your rep with company WXY and eventually work your way into the good graces of company ABC who has close ties to UEE so you can finally start improving your rep with them. It will be a long road that will have most people just saying screw it and starting a new account instead of repairing their rep.


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Adultery is a “sin”, not a crime, except in those areas that have religious laws. Just sayin :slight_smile:, otherwise my ex wife would be in jail for life. I’m not saying she’s unfaithful, I’m just saying that, if you live in Texas, there is a non-zero chance that you slept with her at one point during our marriage.

I’m speaking of the criminal system, not the rep system. The rep system is going to up and down and be super complex, and I like that idea. That’s the “in game lore” that I love, all about opportunities for everyone and choices.

The criminal system is designed as a deterrent for violent, anti-social behavior in game. You kill a player “unlawfully” (see above), you get a ding. You get x dings, you gain a rank in criminal. Those ranks don’t go down, think of them as levels of prestige in violence, be proud of it, CIG should offer special decals and armor/ship skins for it to encourage people to follow that path. Unfortunately, it also completely blocks off areas of space from you. The higher you are, the more space is blocked off.

I actually like the idea of making it prestigious, like the Grand Marshall title used to be in WoW. “The Universe’s biggest BadAss”. Make it an honor, encourage people to go that way…then lock them off so I don’t have to see them :slight_smile: